How submissive is submissive?

[liz]

Hmm, I have no idea how I missed this great post.

But no I am not taking this idea from some fictional stories. I actually have read in other forums, have not read this here. Maybe they were fictional stories. But it seemed to me that the woman considered herself some fragile little flower, needing discipline (and punishment) to do or not do various things. They were presented as true anyway. In fact, I also saw a forum where the members were all of a certain conservative religious sect that views women as unequal partners. So maybe I did get the wrong idea, but it was not from something that was labeled fiction anyway. OTOH, I can't say that I know of anyone living a DD relationship for real in real life, so I am sure my views are somewhat altered from real life.

As for taking accountability, imo, I wouldn't want anyone else taking accountability for my life. So that this is an odd concept to me. I use this rather loosely of course. But that is just my opinion. YMMV. :-)
As for myself, I do not like the whole authority in another person thing. Now i hope that doesn't come off as disrespectful! As it is a difficult thing to word.
Yikes.


As for Mike, no I don't at all think that it is abusive. I wouldn't even hang here for a moment if I thought that what was goign on was abusive.
I'm sure there are some crazed kooks out there which is one reason I haven't even begun to act on this stuff, even though I realize that the no. of actual crazed kooks is rather low.


--liz

Originally Posted by sarah thorne

Wow! What a loaded post! lol.

I may get a bit long winded here guys - so bare with me.

When you say

...it makes me wonder what your perceptions are of a discipline relationship. Or rather, a relationship which encompasses discipline, as RG's and mine does.What does "in the usual sense" mean? Is your perception of a relationship that has discipline in it based on stories and entries you have seen online?

I believe that DD (domestic discipline) is largely misunderstood and misperceived.

It seems to me that many who form views on DD and what it is have never actually lived the lifestyle or seen a DD relationship that was actually everyday partner oriented rather than one based simply on online communications that eventually culminate in occasional plane trips across the country for a day of reckoning.

You have to keep in mind when forming opinions on how others implement their DD lifestyle based on what you learn from online forums that many people reading, and yes even writing, have no actual experience in living any kind of spanking lifestyle, much less living the lifestyle of DD. They get their information from fantasy story boards and thus form their opinions based on fantasy punishment stories.

RG doesn't "control" me. He is my protector. He spoils me beyond belief. He rubs my feet, brings me coffee and pampers me. In everyday life, we are boringly vanilla. There are few guidelines that I must adhere to. They largely deal with my own willpower in certain areas. I respond to outside accountability to specific behaviors that I want to control but lack the immediate willpower to do so when faced with it. This is my choice. You indicate that you could do it in a limited fashion if you could "establish perimeters". Most discipline relationships have perimeters established from the beginning-- and those perimeters are established by the couple themselves and not just someone "establishing what is good for you" on their own. Remember, subs in a relationship are getting a need met by the type of the relationship they have chosen to be in and, if the Dom is to meet those needs, he must communicate and listen and nurture and not simply be controlling the situation just because he can, as it seems.

You are a "liberated woman" you say. I have a strong personality and am not short on opinions (ask RG - or anyone else who knows me) Liberating, for me, is not having to fight my demons alone but to have someone there who will be an actual part of me to help in the way that I respond to best. And not everyone responds to the same relationship styles.

Accountability is implemented differently in each situation. You may prefer no 'real' authority in your accountability -- others prefer that their accountability be more than just a reminder and actually include consequence. I am one of those who have a mix of the two -- some light guidelines and reminders can make me choose the right thing in a weak moment - but knowing a consequence is there to back it up helps make sticking to that decision much more ---- ummm, appealing.

Discipline is not about punishment. It's about guidance. There is no one person who knows every and all things - of course not. In my DD relationship, we are equal. Equal value as people, our partnership is fairly equal. Authority is not equal - but my relinquishing of that to RG was not done lightly. It was done after knowing and experiencing that he valued me and respected me and, in his "governing" over me, the intent was to guide and protect. It was a process and a growing and a mutual decision to make.

This may not work for some, and maybe that's where the issue for you is at. For me, I find that a liberating submission is one I operate best under.

The "discipline" helps to guide and encouarge me (there is a difference in discipline and punishment) and the "punishment" is meant to deter me from those things that may harm me, or the well being of my relationships. I desire discipline -- I do not desire punishment. But I do enjoy the benefit that comes from the combination of the two, and that is a much higher sense of security in myself and my own choices and motivation, something I have struggled with in my other adult relationships.

Thanks for reading - if you made it this far!

sarah

[Mike Schaeffer]

Well Liz, you did come to the right place to learn and ask questions. And the number of crazed kooks seems to be rather high...... we're just not the dangerous kind

[sarah thorne]

Originally Posted by liz

But no I am not taking this idea from some fictional stories. Maybe they were fictional stories. But it seemed to me that the woman considered herself some fragile little flower, needing discipline (and punishment) to do or not do various things. They were presented as true anyway. In fact, I also saw a forum where the members were all of a certain conservative religious sect that views women as unequal partners. So maybe I did get the wrong idea, but it was not from something that was labeled fiction anyway. OTOH, I can't say that I know of anyone living a DD relationship for real in real life, so I am sure my views are somewhat altered from real life.

As for taking accountability, imo, I wouldn't want anyone else taking accountability for my life.


--liz

Two things. Many things labeled "real" online are not "real" about 90% of the time, or there is more to the story.

Secondly,I think possibly you misunderstood someone taking accountability for my life. I take accountability for my life. I have someone who holds me accountable, which really, in the grand scheme of things, is not an odd concept at all.

You are married...? (I don't recall) Most people in serious relationships are held accountable for their actions that may damage that relationship. It may not be in the same way that I am held accountable, but all the same, they must answer for certain behaviors that damage their relationships or they will lose their relationship. This, imo, is not about control but equality and consideration and communication.

Same thing at work. If you do something you're not supposed to, yes YOU are responsible for your own actions but it will be the boss who calls you on it and holds you accountable by making you remedy the situation or "disciplining" you.

There are "rules" and protocol all around us in how to act, from speeding and such, and accountability from outside sources to help give us "incentives" to not break these rules. Relationships have them too. I don't know any relationship where both people can just off and do whatever, use their ATM card without reserve,overdraw the bank account continuously, disappear for days at a time and not call, and not get some kind of consequence from their partner.

The difference is in the way those "consequences" are doled out. And the difference, as well, is that I have accepted an authority from him, and so he can give me a guideline based on something I have claimed I needed (me: "man, I need to stop drinking mochas! I've gained 10 lbs and they're 700 calories!" and then him: "you may not get a Mocha from Starbucks unless you ask me first.") - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. (btw, he nearly always says "yes" when I ask, but knowing I had to ask has made me cut down on drinking the damn things every other day!)

It has always baffled me when people seem to act like accountability is a crazy concept. We are accountable to all kinds of people, everyday. This is why I believe that many people form their opinions on a relationship like what I have from far-out stories about punishments for not having dinner on the table as soon as he gets home, or the dishes done, etc. At least with me, that doesn't happen.

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

[Mike Schaeffer]

Originally Posted by sarah thorne

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

Perfect sense and then some for the first cup of coffee Sarah

[wowbutts]

Well, if you're hung-up on equality of the sexes and you think life should always be fair? maybe a same sex relationship ..is the answer? men & women are not the same! maybe thats why we're called the opposite sex? anyway, if a woman wants a good spanking from me she will get a good spanking from me ,but , only if she wants it !! what do you call a woman who can swing a big paddle? DARLING!

[Mike Schaeffer]

Originally Posted by wowbutts

if a woman wants a good spanking from me she will get a good spanking from me ,but , only if she wants it !! what do you call a woman who can swing a big paddle? DARLING!

I agree totally on that first part and I'm lmao at the second

[liz]

Well Sarah, I suppose your point is well taken! I am quite sure some of those real stories are not really real. I suppose just because I am tellign the truth...

And I also get your point on accountability, a point which does get tiresome as a teacher, I have to say. ;-) We are up to our ears with "standards this and accountability that. so maybe I have a bad taste for it. Anyway, yes, I see what you mean and you are making a lot of sense. (BTW, I would guess the everyday Starbucks would be a good place to start. Do you know how much that would cost a year? Yikes!)

I am single btw. And not in a serious relationship right now.

Someone else's point. The sexes are equal not the same, there is a difference. I think some women's libbers circa 1970s argued that there were no differences it was all cultural. Well we know now that there are many differences aside from the more obvious ones. ;-) Even the way the brains work. BBS had a very nice show on this, btw. I don't think hung up is the word. I am not hung up on it. I might view this differently than you do is all.

Mike, uh oh, on the high no. of crazed kooks. But as I said I am rather cautious. No, make that VERY cautious. I was lurking on these things way long ago, and didn't even participate when it was on usenet, because your email address was on the post. So this doesn't even include actual encounters, because as I said I had one. It was awhile ago. Things were all very equal. But it was not a DD type thing. We were mostly playing. He was a little puzzled by my liking of it, but after awhile I think he started liking it. I can't really even remember what happened with the relationship but we left rather amiably I think. So that has been it, and I haven't even experimented around at all past that. Ya'll seem like a pretty nice bunch though-- and mostly I gather rather bright.

--liz

Originally Posted by sarah thorne

Two things. Many things labeled "real" online are not "real" about 90% of the time, or there is more to the story.

Secondly,I think possibly you misunderstood someone taking accountability for my life. I take accountability for my life. I have someone who holds me accountable, which really, in the grand scheme of things, is not an odd concept at all.

You are married...? (I don't recall) Most people in serious relationships are held accountable for their actions that may damage that relationship. It may not be in the same way that I am held accountable, but all the same, they must answer for certain behaviors that damage their relationships or they will lose their relationship. This, imo, is not about control but equality and consideration and communication.

Same thing at work. If you do something you're not supposed to, yes YOU are responsible for your own actions but it will be the boss who calls you on it and holds you accountable by making you remedy the situation or "disciplining" you.

There are "rules" and protocol all around us in how to act, from speeding and such, and accountability from outside sources to help give us "incentives" to not break these rules. Relationships have them too. I don't know any relationship where both people can just off and do whatever, use their ATM card without reserve,overdraw the bank account continuously, disappear for days at a time and not call, and not get some kind of consequence from their partner.

The difference is in the way those "consequences" are doled out. And the difference, as well, is that I have accepted an authority from him, and so he can give me a guideline based on something I have claimed I needed (me: "man, I need to stop drinking mochas! I've gained 10 lbs and they're 700 calories!" and then him: "you may not get a Mocha from Starbucks unless you ask me first.") - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. (btw, he nearly always says "yes" when I ask, but knowing I had to ask has made me cut down on drinking the damn things every other day!)

It has always baffled me when people seem to act like accountability is a crazy concept. We are accountable to all kinds of people, everyday. This is why I believe that many people form their opinions on a relationship like what I have from far-out stories about punishments for not having dinner on the table as soon as he gets home, or the dishes done, etc. At least with me, that doesn't happen.

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

[wowbutts]

get lost!just go away

[garyspk]

Originally Posted by wowbutts

get lost!just go away

OK, I'm not one to get involved with flame wars and I've made a conscious effort to NOT be a Nazi and start editing posts and users since we started this friendly forum last fall. But since I'm the moderator, I feel compelled to address this particular poster.

I've seen not one, but 2 really mean-spirited posts from you, wowbutts. Stop it now. I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that you don't exactly look like Brad Pitt either. So stop the cheap shots and nasty comments please. It's just not welcome here.

You ARE however, welcome to criticize, post to your heart's content and participate with an open mind. This is the only time I'm going to mention this to you.

[liz]

Thanks Gary for stepping in. I feel I have been very respectful. Maybe I don't understand and I think that MOST of the pov have been well-represented and I much appreciate the insights. It was never ever about being right or winning or losing but about understanding a particular pov.

Thanks for the many well-stated posts. But there is nothing like a nasty post as a thread stopper.

--liz

Originally Posted by garyspk

OK, I'm not one to get involved with flame wars and I've made a conscious effort to NOT be a Nazi and start editing posts and users since we started this friendly forum last fall. But since I'm the moderator, I feel compelled to address this particular poster.

I've seen not one, but 2 really mean-spirited posts from you, wowbutts. Stop it now. I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that you don't exactly look like Brad Pitt either. So stop the cheap shots and nasty comments please. It's just not welcome here.

You ARE however, welcome to criticize, post to your heart's content and participate with an open mind. This is the only time I'm going to mention this to you.