How submissive is submissive?

[Mike Schaeffer]

Well Liz, you did come to the right place to learn and ask questions. And the number of crazed kooks seems to be rather high...... we're just not the dangerous kind

[sarah thorne]

Originally Posted by liz

But no I am not taking this idea from some fictional stories. Maybe they were fictional stories. But it seemed to me that the woman considered herself some fragile little flower, needing discipline (and punishment) to do or not do various things. They were presented as true anyway. In fact, I also saw a forum where the members were all of a certain conservative religious sect that views women as unequal partners. So maybe I did get the wrong idea, but it was not from something that was labeled fiction anyway. OTOH, I can't say that I know of anyone living a DD relationship for real in real life, so I am sure my views are somewhat altered from real life.

As for taking accountability, imo, I wouldn't want anyone else taking accountability for my life.


--liz

Two things. Many things labeled "real" online are not "real" about 90% of the time, or there is more to the story.

Secondly,I think possibly you misunderstood someone taking accountability for my life. I take accountability for my life. I have someone who holds me accountable, which really, in the grand scheme of things, is not an odd concept at all.

You are married...? (I don't recall) Most people in serious relationships are held accountable for their actions that may damage that relationship. It may not be in the same way that I am held accountable, but all the same, they must answer for certain behaviors that damage their relationships or they will lose their relationship. This, imo, is not about control but equality and consideration and communication.

Same thing at work. If you do something you're not supposed to, yes YOU are responsible for your own actions but it will be the boss who calls you on it and holds you accountable by making you remedy the situation or "disciplining" you.

There are "rules" and protocol all around us in how to act, from speeding and such, and accountability from outside sources to help give us "incentives" to not break these rules. Relationships have them too. I don't know any relationship where both people can just off and do whatever, use their ATM card without reserve,overdraw the bank account continuously, disappear for days at a time and not call, and not get some kind of consequence from their partner.

The difference is in the way those "consequences" are doled out. And the difference, as well, is that I have accepted an authority from him, and so he can give me a guideline based on something I have claimed I needed (me: "man, I need to stop drinking mochas! I've gained 10 lbs and they're 700 calories!" and then him: "you may not get a Mocha from Starbucks unless you ask me first.") - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. (btw, he nearly always says "yes" when I ask, but knowing I had to ask has made me cut down on drinking the damn things every other day!)

It has always baffled me when people seem to act like accountability is a crazy concept. We are accountable to all kinds of people, everyday. This is why I believe that many people form their opinions on a relationship like what I have from far-out stories about punishments for not having dinner on the table as soon as he gets home, or the dishes done, etc. At least with me, that doesn't happen.

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

[Mike Schaeffer]

Originally Posted by sarah thorne

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

Perfect sense and then some for the first cup of coffee Sarah

[liz]

Well Sarah, I suppose your point is well taken! I am quite sure some of those real stories are not really real. I suppose just because I am tellign the truth...

And I also get your point on accountability, a point which does get tiresome as a teacher, I have to say. ;-) We are up to our ears with "standards this and accountability that. so maybe I have a bad taste for it. Anyway, yes, I see what you mean and you are making a lot of sense. (BTW, I would guess the everyday Starbucks would be a good place to start. Do you know how much that would cost a year? Yikes!)

I am single btw. And not in a serious relationship right now.

Someone else's point. The sexes are equal not the same, there is a difference. I think some women's libbers circa 1970s argued that there were no differences it was all cultural. Well we know now that there are many differences aside from the more obvious ones. ;-) Even the way the brains work. BBS had a very nice show on this, btw. I don't think hung up is the word. I am not hung up on it. I might view this differently than you do is all.

Mike, uh oh, on the high no. of crazed kooks. But as I said I am rather cautious. No, make that VERY cautious. I was lurking on these things way long ago, and didn't even participate when it was on usenet, because your email address was on the post. So this doesn't even include actual encounters, because as I said I had one. It was awhile ago. Things were all very equal. But it was not a DD type thing. We were mostly playing. He was a little puzzled by my liking of it, but after awhile I think he started liking it. I can't really even remember what happened with the relationship but we left rather amiably I think. So that has been it, and I haven't even experimented around at all past that. Ya'll seem like a pretty nice bunch though-- and mostly I gather rather bright.

--liz

Originally Posted by sarah thorne

Two things. Many things labeled "real" online are not "real" about 90% of the time, or there is more to the story.

Secondly,I think possibly you misunderstood someone taking accountability for my life. I take accountability for my life. I have someone who holds me accountable, which really, in the grand scheme of things, is not an odd concept at all.

You are married...? (I don't recall) Most people in serious relationships are held accountable for their actions that may damage that relationship. It may not be in the same way that I am held accountable, but all the same, they must answer for certain behaviors that damage their relationships or they will lose their relationship. This, imo, is not about control but equality and consideration and communication.

Same thing at work. If you do something you're not supposed to, yes YOU are responsible for your own actions but it will be the boss who calls you on it and holds you accountable by making you remedy the situation or "disciplining" you.

There are "rules" and protocol all around us in how to act, from speeding and such, and accountability from outside sources to help give us "incentives" to not break these rules. Relationships have them too. I don't know any relationship where both people can just off and do whatever, use their ATM card without reserve,overdraw the bank account continuously, disappear for days at a time and not call, and not get some kind of consequence from their partner.

The difference is in the way those "consequences" are doled out. And the difference, as well, is that I have accepted an authority from him, and so he can give me a guideline based on something I have claimed I needed (me: "man, I need to stop drinking mochas! I've gained 10 lbs and they're 700 calories!" and then him: "you may not get a Mocha from Starbucks unless you ask me first.") - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. (btw, he nearly always says "yes" when I ask, but knowing I had to ask has made me cut down on drinking the damn things every other day!)

It has always baffled me when people seem to act like accountability is a crazy concept. We are accountable to all kinds of people, everyday. This is why I believe that many people form their opinions on a relationship like what I have from far-out stories about punishments for not having dinner on the table as soon as he gets home, or the dishes done, etc. At least with me, that doesn't happen.

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

[Adelina]

I'm in the same category as Erica. I'm all bottom, but NOT submissive. Submission seems to be one of those things that is like a big clump of play-doh, something you mold into whatever works best for you. There's no right or wrong way to it, a fact which makes it all the harder to grasp!

Weaving your way through this kink-world can be a little disorienting. When I found this online community, I was bringing a lifetime of fantasy and the assumption that all these other people here were just like me, treating the spanking thrill as a form of pornography and rough sexuality. Many of my private fantasies would probably be considered more the Master/slave fare, but always with the distinct knowledge that it was not real, that there was a solid, impervious line separating the mental imagery from the real world. And I assumed that such was the way people operated when interacting with others in person.

When I discovered people were living this "DD" lifestyle, I was scandalized! My whole fantasy went *poof.*

From there, I tried to sort of talk myself into being submissive, thinking that if I didn't, I wouldn't be a "real" spanko and wouldn't fit into the group. That just led to a lot of frustration, depression, and being just plain pissed-off. People who are in DD or DS relationships often describe this deep emotional connection with their partners, and it's that very connection that eludes me in my quasi-autistic-ness; it even feels sort of icky to me. I feel most comfortable standing alone, but knowing that resources are readily available when I do want to reach out.

I have learned an awful lot about the lifestyle and have respect for it now, rather than suspicion. But I've also become quite comfortable being where I'm at, which is just enjoying the heck out of my kink and not being the least bit interested in discipline or punishment, and knowing that is okay.

In the interest of clarification:

[QUOTE=sarah thorne ] ... - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. QUOTE]

Here's me being super picky! I felt a need to point out that, in an earlier post sarah, you noted appropriately that discipline and punishment are not the same thing... but here, you are using the words interchangeably. It's an important distinction, one which I have struggled to understand. As best I can tell, discipline is more of an ongoing atmosphere or undercurrent of structure, whereas punishment is a specific event with a distinct beginning and end. Does that sound right?

I do have a legitimate need for release, and the ideal scenario would probably appear similiar to discipline, but I don't feel they are the same. I don't desire accountability for specific things; but I get worried about things, or get depressed, or just feel "off," and I feel like yelling or throwing things or punching someone in the head. Naturally, I do none of those things... so the tension just stays all smushed inside me and makes me jumpy and wound up and less attentive to my surroundings. I relish the notion of someone just grabbing me and spanking until my head clears out, or even just restraining me in a tight grip... and then I would be able to chill out and look at things rationally again. That would be a dream come true. But I don't think it quite fits into the discipline realm. It has more of a therapeutic slant.

[sarah thorne]

[QUOTE=Adelina;4801]

In the interest of clarification:

[QUOTE=sarah thorne ] ... - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket.

Here's me being super picky! I felt a need to point out that, in an earlier post sarah, you noted appropriately that discipline and punishment are not the same thing... but here, you are using the words interchangeably. It's an important distinction, one which I have struggled to understand. As best I can tell, discipline is more of an ongoing atmosphere or undercurrent of structure, whereas punishment is a specific event with a distinct beginning and end. Does that sound right?

Actually, yes.

However, like many words, they can be used separately in contexts and interchangeably to mean the same thing. For instance, I can say, "I was disciplined last night for an infraction." and you are going to know that, technically, I was punished. Discipline seems to be a word that can be used, as you say, in regard to an ongoing atmosphere of guidance, or it can be used in the context of being an actual act, such as one of punishment. The words punishment, however, doesn't seem to me to be used in the dual sense.

I prefer to use the word 'discipline' rather than 'punish' because the word 'punish' sounds so...I don't know....harsh.

Does that make sense?

sarah

[Mike Schaeffer]

Originally Posted by Adelina

I do have a legitimate need for release, and the ideal scenario would probably appear similiar to discipline, but I don't feel they are the same. I don't desire accountability for specific things; but I get worried about things, or get depressed, or just feel "off," and I feel like yelling or throwing things or punching someone in the head. Naturally, I do none of those things... so the tension just stays all smushed inside me and makes me jumpy and wound up and less attentive to my surroundings. I relish the notion of someone just grabbing me and spanking until my head clears out, or even just restraining me in a tight grip... and then I would be able to chill out and look at things rationally again. That would be a dream come true. But I don't think it quite fits into the discipline realm. It has more of a therapeutic slant.

Adelina, this is exactly where the loosely used "bottom" or "submissive" comes in. You just need to find a "top" or "disciplinarian" that understands your needs. As I've put in other posts, there were many times that I didn't "decide" a punishment was in order, rather the girl I was with came to me and told me that she needed to be spanked and why. In fact that was how it went most of the time. Since we didn't live together there were many things I was unaware of and I certainly had no desire to try and keep an eye on anyone 24/7. When my spankee needed that release for whatever reason SHE would let ME know and from there we would work out the punishment. This is paramount to a healthy spanking relationship, the spankee is the one actually in control of the situation, but she (or he) transfers that control over to the spanker as needed. If your needs aren't the paramount concern of your spanker, it's time to find a new one. You have to build that kind of relationship where both parties needs are met, whether you have an actual relationship or just a spanking relationship.

[wowbutts]

Well, if you're hung-up on equality of the sexes and you think life should always be fair? maybe a same sex relationship ..is the answer? men & women are not the same! maybe thats why we're called the opposite sex? anyway, if a woman wants a good spanking from me she will get a good spanking from me ,but , only if she wants it !! what do you call a woman who can swing a big paddle? DARLING!

[Mike Schaeffer]

Originally Posted by wowbutts

if a woman wants a good spanking from me she will get a good spanking from me ,but , only if she wants it !! what do you call a woman who can swing a big paddle? DARLING!

I agree totally on that first part and I'm lmao at the second

[wowbutts]

get lost!just go away