How submissive is submissive?
 

I was just writing in my last post some things and they seemed odd for a "bottom", so I am going to write them here and see what kind of response I get. I'm sure there is no "wrong".

Anyway, my thought is that I am a fairly liberated woman. I want an equal relationship, and I wouldn't want anyone in control of me, in the usual sense. I could never do "discipline"-- unless I could do it back (which I probably wouldn't anyway). Anyway, I tend to think words and speech are better, my opinion. I could "play discipline" as long as I could establish perimeters. For instance, say if I called him a "big dumb ass" or somethign I wouldn't normally say. Or we'd establish some minor infraction-- such as coming in late without calling. (I might get VERY late.) And then within that establish what could and wouldn't be done. I have never done this all, so I consider this quite theoretical, but what the heck.

I'm sure that from some people's standpoint here this is really odd. :-)
But to me, if someone establishes what would be good for me, it would not, to me, be an adult relationship. I wouldn't, for instance, consider that the male necessarily knows better or is better behaved than i am. In fact, usually males aren't!! (Sorry guys.) I am not making judgments on whatever works for you. If it works and you are happy with it, well more power to you.

I might sort of a wannabe submissive?

--liz

There are many definitions and degrees of submission, Liz. At the risk of taking labels too seriously, I adamantly refer to myself as "a bottom, NOT a submissive." That is not to say I can't be submissive, but that is not my natural state of being.

To me, submission is something that is earned with trust and caring, not demanded. I am naturally rebellious and feisty, and I'd rather challenge a top than obey him. But if he has the patience (and the sense of humor) to deal with me in the right way, I can find myself in a much softer and compliant place.

You're correct in saying there really is no "wrong." There's only opinions and personal preferences. Whatever works for you is what's right for you. -- Erica

Lots of these beautiful ladies here started as wannabe subs. Just be careful, but most guys here very trustworthy.

Very good observation Phil.....and i second, third and fourth there are lots of untrustworthy men and women out there so we all have to be careful, but when you find that one if you find that one...damn it is good!

Wow! What a loaded post! lol.

I may get a bit long winded here guys - so bare with me. :rolleyes:

When you say ...it makes me wonder what your perceptions are of a discipline relationship. Or rather, a relationship which encompasses discipline, as RG's and mine does.What does "in the usual sense" mean? Is your perception of a relationship that has discipline in it based on stories and entries you have seen online?

I believe that DD (domestic discipline) is largely misunderstood and misperceived.

It seems to me that many who form views on DD and what it is have never actually lived the lifestyle or seen a DD relationship that was actually everyday partner oriented rather than one based simply on online communications that eventually culminate in occasional plane trips across the country for a day of reckoning.

You have to keep in mind when forming opinions on how others implement their DD lifestyle based on what you learn from online forums that many people reading, and yes even writing, have no actual experience in living any kind of spanking lifestyle, much less living the lifestyle of DD. They get their information from fantasy story boards and thus form their opinions based on fantasy punishment stories.

Stories/experiences shared by those actually living a day to day life with a DD partner are extremely rare to find. What is actually shared from these individuals is usually a small snippet of life related to the lifestyle itself and does not adequately show what day to day life in a 24/7 DD relationship is actually like. Know why? Cuz everyone would be bored to tears.

I know of only a few couples who live everyday DD in the same household. From my own experience as one of these people, I have to say that the misperceptions are many. RG does not have a list of rules hanging up in our house. RG does not constantly look to find any infraction to have a reason to punish me. RG does not order me about, (altho anyone knowing us knows that I do the ordering about *snicker*) or monitor my daily activities, or punish me if housework isn't done, or dictate a time schedule for me, or make my everyday decisions.

RG doesn't "control" me. He is my protector. He spoils me beyond belief. He rubs my feet, brings me coffee and pampers me. In everyday life, we are boringly vanilla. There are few guidelines that I must adhere to. They largely deal with my own willpower in certain areas. I respond to outside accountability to specific behaviors that I want to control but lack the immediate willpower to do so when faced with it. This is my choice. You indicate that you could do it in a limited fashion if you could "establish perimeters". Most discipline relationships have perimeters established from the beginning-- and those perimeters are established by the couple themselves and not just someone "establishing what is good for you" on their own. Remember, subs in a relationship are getting a need met by the type of the relationship they have chosen to be in and, if the Dom is to meet those needs, he must communicate and listen and nurture and not simply be controlling the situation just because he can, as it seems.

You are a "liberated woman" you say. I have a strong personality and am not short on opinions (ask RG :D - or anyone else who knows me) Liberating, for me, is not having to fight my demons alone but to have someone there who will be an actual part of me to help in the way that I respond to best. And not everyone responds to the same relationship styles.

Accountability is implemented differently in each situation. You may prefer no 'real' authority in your accountability -- others prefer that their accountability be more than just a reminder and actually include consequence. I am one of those who have a mix of the two -- some light guidelines and reminders can make me choose the right thing in a weak moment - but knowing a consequence is there to back it up helps make sticking to that decision much more ---- ummm, appealing.

Discipline is not about punishment. It's about guidance. There is no one person who knows every and all things - of course not. In my DD relationship, we are equal. Equal value as people, our partnership is fairly equal. Authority is not equal - but my relinquishing of that to RG was not done lightly. It was done after knowing and experiencing that he valued me and respected me and, in his "governing" over me, the intent was to guide and protect. It was a process and a growing and a mutual decision to make.

This may not work for some, and maybe that's where the issue for you is at. For me, I find that a liberating submission is one I operate best under.

The "discipline" helps to guide and encouarge me (there is a difference in discipline and punishment) and the "punishment" is meant to deter me from those things that may harm me, or the well being of my relationships. I desire discipline -- I do not desire punishment. But I do enjoy the benefit that comes from the combination of the two, and that is a much higher sense of security in myself and my own choices and motivation, something I have struggled with in my other adult relationships.

Thanks for reading - if you made it this far! :eek:

sarah

This may seem an odd comment, but thanks for getting long winded Sarah (who ever thought you'd hear that one huh? ;) )

It is hard to get a true slice of real DD....I know I am one that has read about it and talked a few with those that live it on a day to day basis, but still can't get a full grasp on the concept as a whole as I've never experienced it myself so any tidbit of information such as your post is a welcome source of information to me.

Great reply Sarah. Very enlightning.

Yeah, what Sarah said :)

OK, grab a seat....

While I may use "sub" or "submissive" occasionally I use those words liberally. The girls I was with were spankees but far from true subs at all, although they had some tendencies. I also use "dom" or "dominant" loosely for the same reasons.

I am a dom or top. I happen to be a spanker. I don't enjoy being spanked, or rather it doesn't do anything for me. Physically, emotionally and mentally I ignore pain (I send my mind somewhere else or go inside a ball) and even being hit with a paddle, strap, cane etc (short of somebody going insane on me) would be hard to bring to a level I didn't "float away" from.

Every now and then I'll mention "points". My spanking relationships were mostly based on a "naughty points" system if you will. Both myself and the other person I was with agreed upon everything to do with this. Some things could "earn" a spanking and other times there were several smaller things that added together for a spanking. It was never real points like "you got 5 points for breaking a dish" or anything like that, it was just misbehavior kept track of. It was all discussed before a punishment took place and generally agreed that she had misbehaved and deserved a spanking. Sometimes she would "tell on" herself and tell me she thought she deserved a spanking. In this matter though, I had the "final word".

I use "final word" liberally also and I think that everyone here would agree that it's not Supreme Court Decision final. For example I never had a girl break up with me and said "That's bad and you're getting spanked.". I don't think anybody on here with the final word would try to spank someone who seriously and emphatically said "No!". I mean those who get spanked on here may say "Damn I got spanked with the bathbrush earlier and it stung like mad" but nobody comes on and says "I got beat with a brush earlier today and i'm scared, what should I do? He/she might be coming back, should I call the police?". If that were the case it would move from our world in to the range of assault/domestic violence.

I've met submissive girls in the true sense who wanted me to tell them what to wear, what to eat, who they could talk to, etc. I'm naturally dominant and I'm used to having to be in charge or take over in a crisis, and while I may enjoy some small dom things (like "making" my GF hand me her panties at a restaraunt when she's wearing a skirt :cool: ) I want a partner to share with, not someone I'm truly in complete control of. I enjoy my part of the power exchange, but my partner has to enjoy their part at least as much or it will never work. I couldn't be happy with someone who did this for me, but didn't enjoy it. Having "power" over some things can be a turn on for me, but I never want to dominate someones will.

I'm a spanker yes, but anybody that truly knows me also knows that I never have and never will hit a woman out of anger. I won't even spank if I'm angry. I am completely against domestic assault weather it's emotional, mental or physical. In this case I would never spank someone "against their will". This is something that has to be between both parties.

I think "our kink" has to have fantasy on both parts for it to exist. I don't think anybody here is battered or a batterer. So while some may go farther than others, it's still in the fantasy world. The people here are still functional and (mostly :D ) rational and whether top or bottom have something they share with a partner. So whether it's a "need" or just a "want" it's something enjoyed or at least comforting on some level to all of us.

Mike that was an excellent and clarifying post. I definitely do not see anyone here as abusers!! And if the person didn't want to stay they wouldn't.

It does seem to me that some people are out of the "play" behavior and this is more serious in the sense that the believe it helps them in some way to be a better person. But I have never confused this with being nonconsensual. Perhaps in the details it might be, but it is still consensual in the way that they have and continue to hold the relationship.

Yes I see this as a trade off of being in control to some extent. Not just of the spankee. I think this is what is highly confusing to vanillas.

Someone told me to be careful. Well yes, I am way way way careful. Since I have only one time been in any relationship that had any amt of spanking in it. Most guys I have met believe it is wrong-- I think even though (and perhaps partly because) I like it.

--liz

There are always odd balls and crazies, but for the most part spankos are just spankos. And it is important to be careful and safe. In a couple situation everything has to be agreed upon, if there are "set rules and behavior" for the spankee there has to be for the spanker as well or the whole thing will never be a "functional" spanking relationship. I've been in many vanilla relationships with women who had no interest in spanking even when i brought it up to them and so no spanking ever happened. I would never spank or dominate someone against their will nor would I tolerate it if I knew about it.

On a personal note.... I have never and will never be physically abusive to a woman. I'm offended by the very idea of that happening and can tell you that as a former Law Enforcement Officer I will step in without hesitation and put a stop to any domestic abuse I see, even at personal risk or the danger of arrest. That was a difficult part for me to get past, but that's all stuff that I had to deal with on a personal level. There are lines that can never be crossed and again it all has to be about understanding; comfort and, more importantly, trust between the spanker and spankee.

If the right conditions don't exist the two people need to find others that are more i tune with their needs / desires.

Hmm, I have no idea how I missed this great post.

But no I am not taking this idea from some fictional stories. I actually have read in other forums, have not read this here. Maybe they were fictional stories. But it seemed to me that the woman considered herself some fragile little flower, needing discipline (and punishment) to do or not do various things. They were presented as true anyway. In fact, I also saw a forum where the members were all of a certain conservative religious sect that views women as unequal partners. So maybe I did get the wrong idea, but it was not from something that was labeled fiction anyway. OTOH, I can't say that I know of anyone living a DD relationship for real in real life, so I am sure my views are somewhat altered from real life.

As for taking accountability, imo, I wouldn't want anyone else taking accountability for my life. So that this is an odd concept to me. I use this rather loosely of course. But that is just my opinion. YMMV. :-)
As for myself, I do not like the whole authority in another person thing. Now i hope that doesn't come off as disrespectful! As it is a difficult thing to word.
Yikes.


As for Mike, no I don't at all think that it is abusive. I wouldn't even hang here for a moment if I thought that what was goign on was abusive.
I'm sure there are some crazed kooks out there which is one reason I haven't even begun to act on this stuff, even though I realize that the no. of actual crazed kooks is rather low.


--liz

Well Liz, you did come to the right place to learn and ask questions. And the number of crazed kooks seems to be rather high...... we're just not the dangerous kind :p

Two things. Many things labeled "real" online are not "real" about 90% of the time, or there is more to the story. :)

Secondly,I think possibly you misunderstood someone taking accountability for my life. I take accountability for my life. I have someone who holds me accountable, which really, in the grand scheme of things, is not an odd concept at all.

You are married...? (I don't recall) Most people in serious relationships are held accountable for their actions that may damage that relationship. It may not be in the same way that I am held accountable, but all the same, they must answer for certain behaviors that damage their relationships or they will lose their relationship. This, imo, is not about control but equality and consideration and communication.

Same thing at work. If you do something you're not supposed to, yes YOU are responsible for your own actions but it will be the boss who calls you on it and holds you accountable by making you remedy the situation or "disciplining" you.

There are "rules" and protocol all around us in how to act, from speeding and such, and accountability from outside sources to help give us "incentives" to not break these rules. Relationships have them too. I don't know any relationship where both people can just off and do whatever, use their ATM card without reserve,overdraw the bank account continuously, disappear for days at a time and not call, and not get some kind of consequence from their partner.

The difference is in the way those "consequences" are doled out. And the difference, as well, is that I have accepted an authority from him, and so he can give me a guideline based on something I have claimed I needed (me: "man, I need to stop drinking mochas! I've gained 10 lbs and they're 700 calories!" and then him: "you may not get a Mocha from Starbucks unless you ask me first.") - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. (btw, he nearly always says "yes" when I ask, but knowing I had to ask has made me cut down on drinking the damn things every other day!)

It has always baffled me when people seem to act like accountability is a crazy concept. We are accountable to all kinds of people, everyday. This is why I believe that many people form their opinions on a relationship like what I have from far-out stories about punishments for not having dinner on the table as soon as he gets home, or the dishes done, etc. At least with me, that doesn't happen.

Did I make any sense? I am still on my first cup of coffee.

Perfect sense and then some for the first cup of coffee Sarah :p

Well, if you're hung-up on equality of the sexes and you think life should always be fair? maybe a same sex relationship ..is the answer? men & women are not the same! maybe thats why we're called the opposite sex? anyway, if a woman wants a good spanking from me she will get a good spanking from me ,but , only if she wants it !! what do you call a woman who can swing a big paddle? DARLING!

I agree totally on that first part and I'm lmao at the second:)

Well Sarah, I suppose your point is well taken! I am quite sure some of those real stories are not really real. I suppose just because I am tellign the truth...

And I also get your point on accountability, a point which does get tiresome as a teacher, I have to say. ;-) We are up to our ears with "standards this and accountability that. so maybe I have a bad taste for it. Anyway, yes, I see what you mean and you are making a lot of sense. (BTW, I would guess the everyday Starbucks would be a good place to start. Do you know how much that would cost a year? Yikes!)

I am single btw. And not in a serious relationship right now.

Someone else's point. The sexes are equal not the same, there is a difference. I think some women's libbers circa 1970s argued that there were no differences it was all cultural. Well we know now that there are many differences aside from the more obvious ones. ;-) Even the way the brains work. BBS had a very nice show on this, btw. I don't think hung up is the word. I am not hung up on it. I might view this differently than you do is all.

Mike, uh oh, on the high no. of crazed kooks. But as I said I am rather cautious. No, make that VERY cautious. I was lurking on these things way long ago, and didn't even participate when it was on usenet, because your email address was on the post. So this doesn't even include actual encounters, because as I said I had one. It was awhile ago. Things were all very equal. But it was not a DD type thing. We were mostly playing. He was a little puzzled by my liking of it, but after awhile I think he started liking it. I can't really even remember what happened with the relationship but we left rather amiably I think. So that has been it, and I haven't even experimented around at all past that. Ya'll seem like a pretty nice bunch though-- and mostly I gather rather bright.

--liz

you should ..
 

get lost!just go away

OK, I'm not one to get involved with flame wars and I've made a conscious effort to NOT be a Nazi and start editing posts and users since we started this friendly forum last fall. But since I'm the moderator, I feel compelled to address this particular poster.

I've seen not one, but 2 really mean-spirited posts from you, wowbutts. Stop it now. I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that you don't exactly look like Brad Pitt either. So stop the cheap shots and nasty comments please. It's just not welcome here.

You ARE however, welcome to criticize, post to your heart's content and participate with an open mind. This is the only time I'm going to mention this to you.

Thanks Gary for stepping in. I feel I have been very respectful. Maybe I don't understand and I think that MOST of the pov have been well-represented and I much appreciate the insights. It was never ever about being right or winning or losing but about understanding a particular pov.

Thanks for the many well-stated posts. But there is nothing like a nasty post as a thread stopper.

--liz

I'm in the same category as Erica. I'm all bottom, but NOT submissive. Submission seems to be one of those things that is like a big clump of play-doh, something you mold into whatever works best for you. There's no right or wrong way to it, a fact which makes it all the harder to grasp!

Weaving your way through this kink-world can be a little disorienting. When I found this online community, I was bringing a lifetime of fantasy and the assumption that all these other people here were just like me, treating the spanking thrill as a form of pornography and rough sexuality. Many of my private fantasies would probably be considered more the Master/slave fare, but always with the distinct knowledge that it was not real, that there was a solid, impervious line separating the mental imagery from the real world. And I assumed that such was the way people operated when interacting with others in person.

When I discovered people were living this "DD" lifestyle, I was scandalized! My whole fantasy went *poof.*

From there, I tried to sort of talk myself into being submissive, thinking that if I didn't, I wouldn't be a "real" spanko and wouldn't fit into the group. That just led to a lot of frustration, depression, and being just plain pissed-off. People who are in DD or DS relationships often describe this deep emotional connection with their partners, and it's that very connection that eludes me in my quasi-autistic-ness; it even feels sort of icky to me. I feel most comfortable standing alone, but knowing that resources are readily available when I do want to reach out.

I have learned an awful lot about the lifestyle and have respect for it now, rather than suspicion. But I've also become quite comfortable being where I'm at, which is just enjoying the heck out of my kink and not being the least bit interested in discipline or punishment, and knowing that is okay.

In the interest of clarification:

[QUOTE=sarah thorne ] ... - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. QUOTE]

Here's me being super picky! I felt a need to point out that, in an earlier post sarah, you noted appropriately that discipline and punishment are not the same thing... but here, you are using the words interchangeably. It's an important distinction, one which I have struggled to understand. As best I can tell, discipline is more of an ongoing atmosphere or undercurrent of structure, whereas punishment is a specific event with a distinct beginning and end. Does that sound right?

I do have a legitimate need for release, and the ideal scenario would probably appear similiar to discipline, but I don't feel they are the same. I don't desire accountability for specific things; but I get worried about things, or get depressed, or just feel "off," and I feel like yelling or throwing things or punching someone in the head. Naturally, I do none of those things... so the tension just stays all smushed inside me and makes me jumpy and wound up and less attentive to my surroundings. I relish the notion of someone just grabbing me and spanking until my head clears out, or even just restraining me in a tight grip... and then I would be able to chill out and look at things rationally again. That would be a dream come true. But I don't think it quite fits into the discipline realm. It has more of a therapeutic slant.

[QUOTE=Adelina;4801]

In the interest of clarification:

[QUOTE=sarah thorne ] ... - and then discipline me for breaking that. I have no willpower, and view it as him "helping" me. I want to avoid that discipline, like I want to avoid a ticket. Actually, yes.

However, like many words, they can be used separately in contexts and interchangeably to mean the same thing. For instance, I can say, "I was disciplined last night for an infraction." and you are going to know that, technically, I was punished. Discipline seems to be a word that can be used, as you say, in regard to an ongoing atmosphere of guidance, or it can be used in the context of being an actual act, such as one of punishment. The words punishment, however, doesn't seem to me to be used in the dual sense.

I prefer to use the word 'discipline' rather than 'punish' because the word 'punish' sounds so...I don't know....harsh.

Does that make sense?

sarah

It does make sense, yes, as you explain it.

Both words are equally unappealing to me, but I know my circumstances are different. They have negative connotations. But at least I am able to type them now! There is hope....

Adelina, this is exactly where the loosely used "bottom" or "submissive" comes in. You just need to find a "top" or "disciplinarian" that understands your needs. As I've put in other posts, there were many times that I didn't "decide" a punishment was in order, rather the girl I was with came to me and told me that she needed to be spanked and why. In fact that was how it went most of the time. Since we didn't live together there were many things I was unaware of and I certainly had no desire to try and keep an eye on anyone 24/7. When my spankee needed that release for whatever reason SHE would let ME know and from there we would work out the punishment. This is paramount to a healthy spanking relationship, the spankee is the one actually in control of the situation, but she (or he) transfers that control over to the spanker as needed. If your needs aren't the paramount concern of your spanker, it's time to find a new one. You have to build that kind of relationship where both parties needs are met, whether you have an actual relationship or just a spanking relationship.

Hey, if it makes sense to Adelina, that is all I need to know hehe.